they intended to win the white house based on obama may soon be on the outside looking in at a romney administration. >> i hope you have a great night. i would have to be destitute for that to be the case. if it came to that. from the fast-food guide how the country could be fast. >> unions are making a prophefi. they often do. what do they want? a living wage. >> what should the minimum be? >> 30-35 dollars an hour. >> 30 bucks an hour. >> you tell me how much i need. you are right out of high school into college with your preppie everything, you know nothing. >> do i know nothing? then i want to learn. unions, that's our show tonight.

now, john stossel. >> this month it was the chicago teeven teacher's union that got the media attention. but this battle for control of the schools will continue and i will keep covering it. the basic issue of who gets to decide how to manage a workplace and who has the power and who pays applies to more than teachers and taxpayers. all unions say it's good for america if unions protect workers from arbitrary dismissal for example. is that true? i say no. all grievance that makes it hard to fire people and everybody be treated equally are bad for taxpayers and even union workers themselves. this is not intuitive and i had no luck when i brought that argument to union works.

> >> talked to thousands of union members came to philadelphia and said we need a second bill of rights. >> it included the right to full i am employment, a living wage. i had a number of arguments with some. let's start with one. why when some workers are much more effective than others the union rules mean the slackers the real goof offs can't be fired. >> duds the body of a slacker get paid when you get paid? >> no, because there is no slacker. >> no. >> everybody is there to do a job. >> the unions we had to reach out and bring that person up to speed. we had to bring up everyone responsible to the next person. >> do they all get up to speak? >> absolutely. >> all of them? >> absolutely. >> are they all up to speed? who knew. john tillman of the policy institute has been studying the

illinois teacher's union and other unions. it is hard to fire a teacher. i assume they are all up to speed. they a >> they are all equal, john. there is what i like to call the union sealiceiling. they are in the classroom with a teacher who is below par what parents would like is to be able to identify the teachers who are exceptional and reward them with merit pay. that's not what the unions want they want everybody treated the same even though we knew they are different. >> if it were more of a market their spending is 13,000 per student. the best teachers might make 300,000 bucks a year. >> the special teachers who take kids out of a poor neighborhood in chicago would be greatly rewarded. with the teacher's union strike they are calling for lack of ask the ability and lack of measurement. there is no parent at the

negotiating table in chicago. >> i have to believe most of the teachers want to do the right thing. they want more for sthemselves. i don't think the public knows this. the average age of america. chicago teachers make so much the school district 76,000. highest in the country. >> not including pension or medical. >> that is more per hour an accountant step. the thing that we show in chicago we have the fewest. it starts with the national average. >> we get into 3 hours left insurance the seecher who were

well there. only # 4 out of 10 kids don't graduate from high school. >> you are not they do but the government's bureau of labor statistics. they found the average public schoolteacher works 36.5 hours a week. it's a 40-hour week. >> it's a short week because the average school day is 5 hours and 45 minutes. do you think you can get much of a good i heducation in 5 hours minutes. the charter schools take work home, too, they are averaging a good percent. >> they are not striking at charter schools. >> 50,000 kids are in school. they are paid 48,000 dollars on average for the charter school. many left the chicago pool sis them where they could actually get in front of a classroom and make a difference in kid's lives

flex fwli. >> 93 percent are rated either superior or excellent. >> where do you know anywhere in the world out of somebody where 93 are good to excellent. that's what i meant by the union sealing. eastbound is strange. it's a stran-- >> it's a strange distortion. we know there are teachers that are amazing the union doesn't want to identify them they want to put them in a pool of teachers who did a poor job and they are dragging it down. >> i would like to bring you to the discussion. she is the stossel show special correspondent. she went to philadelphia she got a more hostile reaction than i did. your school is in government schools in los angeles -- your child is. >> i hear what he says. as a parent it is really scary.

all you want from your child is the best possible classroom experience. that is the most important thing. there has to be some legal of accountability. as a parent i would love if my involvement helped in rating teachers. they don't want to be rated on the tests. they don't want to be rated on student's performance. what metric are you going to use? >> they -- >> magical powers. >> these they include parents who are teachers. >> both were educators as various points in their careers. my mom knows the same thing there are wonderful brilliant teachers who change people's lives. think about the best teacher you have growing up they still have an impact on you. wouldn't it be wonderful if we trust our kids are going to have those experiences and when it is all about the unions and strangle holds and pensions and benefits it makes teachers the enemy.

they shouldn't there should be part of what in there so they blossom. >> the union says it's not just about money they don't think the rating system is fair that you can get a group of kids who don't have parents who care those teaches they struggle are brilliant but they struggle harder they will be unfairly judged. >> the unions have been blaming some of the hardships they come into the school system face every day. >> some are difficult to teach. >> the point the comblier was making is you want to identify those teachers who take those kids with disadvantages and move them further faster. >> you can't improve the system unless you get that. >> let's go back to the union

rally when the unions have the second will bill of rights. they most i talked to were civil. some yelled but we could have an argument. kennedy has different experience because she had the nerve to proep toes a-- propose a second bill of rights. >> i felt lovely. we crafted something to protect small business owners. >> the right to hire and fire. the right to relocate from anywhere to anywhere. >> kennedy spent more time at the rally than i. she marched along all was fine until she tried to get workers to sign her petition for the employer's work of rights. >> i think you should go away. >> that's not a fire engine that siren came from union members

whose response to ken disease proposal was drowning her out. >> who are you? are you kidding me? >> they didn't want you heard? they didn't like the question? >> a lot of the bosses they didn't want union members to think for themselves. they didn't want them to express their opinions from someone to the media. they were upset someone from fox business was there showing what was going on at the rally. >> they were until you raised the concept of an employer having some rights, too. >> i am sympathetic to small business owners. my husband owns a small business. you talk about teachers sendi - spending 36 hours a week on the job they love they are passionate about. my husband is up until 2, 3 in the morning. to succeed it takes ghoebs -- globes of steel. that is why i am sympathetic to

business owners in this country in this environment as taxes go up. >> by contrast many union workers acted as if they owned their jobs. civil rights laws say employers can't fire you because of age gender race, disability. the ounions take it further. they have no right to say no religious displays you have to dress professional. >> (bleep). >> your boss. >> no, no, no. >> no, no, no, no, no. the boss invests in the company and he doesn't get to determine the rate. >> that's the attitude among man neerns. >> the idea it is so condescending. these individuals are not able to think for themselves they cannot negotiate for themselves. that is such an insult. >> some people are not wise to this.

they want to get together and bargain and that is freedom of association. >> go to a flee market on a saturday. that doesn't mean you have to impose your will on the rest of the country. most people don't want to be a part of the union public unions whether you like it or not are bankrupting states like california. >> and illinois. 203 billion of unfunded debt. the reason we have such a race between illinois and california. >> it is a rice right to the bottom unfortunately. the bad news for union members they don't know taxpayers can leave and when the money runs out union members won't get it. the key point of all of this is these unions are monopoly providers of services. that's why 350,000 kids are not in school. they are taking control of our government at the local and state level away from we the people. that's the thing we have to start focusing on.

>> i don't see people striking outside movie theaters or super markets. it's the monopoly government area. >> it tells us who has the power in this relationship the mayor who had a reputation for being a tough guy was essentially rolled by the union and had to go to a court to try to get them to come back to work. the union had all of the power and control because they are the provider of a service. >> monopoly provider. >> one strike they might all lose it. >> the only way to create mechanism for accountability is school choice that empowers the parents instead of the school system or the union. >> why is that such a dirty concept? >> it is not. we are there for it. >> some company workers have tax money to do union work full-time. that's next. i have a cold, and i took nyquil,

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john: >> you have heard stories of the government employees who leave work at 3:00 or retire with a big pension age 55. what if i told you even when government plies do work some are not working for you.

you pay so they work for their union. it does happen. the practice is called official time because the government officially allows workers to spend time on union work. some employees doe it full-time. the georgia congressman is upset about that and wants to end the practice. explain. what happened? >> john, back in 1978 president jimmy carter and the civil service reform act allowed federal union workers to have what is called official time which simply means the union can designate one of their people to represent the group of employees in a federal agency like the department of defense to represent the group all day long

to have expertise in the department of defense. >> he is doing what? doing negotiating contracts? oo collective bargaining mediation, arbitration, talking about how sharp the pencils need to be. the size of the erasers, the number of paper clips. >> you have no evidence that that -- they have these work rules but you are exaggerating. >> in the reports that are on a voluntary basis the office of personnel management says to each agency with want you to report every year how much time was spent how much official time and the total amount of money that was exhausted. like in 2010 it was $130 million. so over a ten- year period of time the total amount of wasted money that we the tax payer are spending so these unions can sit around on behalf of their own

group and -- >> more money for the taxpayers. >> negotiating for more money, more pension, more healthre. my bill simply says that we don't take away their right to collective bargaining and they can negotiate all day long, but do it on the union's dime ott on my dime the tax budget dime. >> the president of the american federation of government employee john gates says this official time rule brings gains in quality, productivity and efficiency year after year. it gives agencies of their employees the means to expeditiously and effectively utilize government input into mission related challenges of the agency. is this whow they talk in government as well as bring closure to conflicts that arise. >> as you say it is government speak and they are trying to

justify. but you have got these two groups, labor and management pretty much negotiating for each other. we the tax payer are the ones that suffer because of that. >> one employee at the faa gets 280,000 a year and works entirely on official time meaning union time. a oo they are not doing anything but sitting around trying to decide what piped in music should be played for their employees. >> is that true? you are making stuff up here. >> no, i am not making up anything. we have researched this looked into it very, very carefully. >> the music that is piped in? >> yeah. >> and this is not just a federal issue, by the way, states and cities have where there are unions they have similar rules in phoenix, for example it's not that bad but 6 police officers there do nothing but union work. >> we know when we look at what governor walker in wisconsin, or

governor christie in new jersey, absolutely. >> what my former colleague in congress governor lewey fort tune no in puerto rico has done in reigning this in we have done it at the state level not done anything yet at the federal level. that's what my bill is all about. >> congressman, thank you very much. coming up every election year unions donate politicians. doesn't that make unions the real boston. when we return shadow boston how government unions control america and rob you blind. before copd...

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told me unions should have more power. but i say they have plenty already. elizabeth and mallory factor just wrote a book with an ominous title shadow boss government unions control america and rob taxpayers blind. they control america. they say we are powerless. >> they really do control america. they are in government. they are in our military in our national security site. >> the private sector small people have a right to choose yes or no. the industries are not unionized grew and the union sank. >> they have the private sector going out of business. now 41 percent of government

employees this is having a big effect. we think government employee unions are fuelling government and government growth. that is one of the big takeaways. >> i will let you explain how they do it. they want bigger government because they get stuff. >> it is really easy one of the greatest scams being perpetrated on the american public. money goes from the government to the unions to the politicians paut and paid for back to the unions and i mean it is an amazing scam. >> in the case of the leaders of the unions you say they are the true one percent? >> of course. they gaye a lot of money to occupy wall street. these are people who made half a million a year. one of them 325,000 in 18 months on private planes. it is astounding. >> they make 10 times what the

rank and file union members make. talk about income inequality. >> you mention the flushy offices they are elegant. the teacher's union office. i tried to go in to take pictures recently. i will give the explanation on another show. the places are unbelievable. >> you say the union supports shadowy causes. >> they sure do. from media matters. i don't know if you all know what media matters is. >> i know because this is a media review group but it dedicates itself to killing off fox. >> that's right. >> they have come after me. >> 1 thun -- 100,000 dollars. the teacher's union. the rank and file members don't do that. but also ask me american federation employees gave them money. the afl cio gave them money.

but you know what the teachers classified it as? public relations. >> well, it is. it's public relations for their side. >> media matters and democrats say more money for unions. >> but the members don't know this. the members never get a chance to know how this money is being spent. when it is classified at public relations it just goes into over head. >> i would disagree with you when they have the opportunity to have their job without being part of the union they vote pretty critically last night. in wisconsin when they were forced to be a member of the union keep their job tap left like that. >> it is important to give the union members a real voice and a vote. >> unions are not pro worker they are pro shadow bosses. >> elizabeth you got my attention when you talk about the military.

i assume the military is an exception. a third are civilian employees of those 60 percent are already unionized. they are telling people how they can dues their employees. the union filed a grievance on the military basis p went from 55 to 65 a cents. >> the bool'ser jag core. by national security you mean border patrol. even nasa kind lists. even the peace corps. >> just looking at homeland security. we found 62 people getting paid to do home land respect work>> what? >> just union work. >> homeland security is 40

percent unionized. thank you. oo still sitling next to each other. ry ryan two shooed up to it. john: i am depressed their writing a book together and still set next to each other. elizabeth fact

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♪ lord, you got no reason ♪ you got no right ♪ ♪ i find myself at the wrong place ♪ [ male announcer ] the ram 1500 express. ♪ it says a lot about you. ♪ in a deep, hemi-rumble sort of way. guts. glory. ram. john: [applause] everyone wants >> everyone wants more pay. i can goefr my boss over pally and pension. he says yes or no. their negotiation is a little bit different because their boss doesn't really pay the bill.

that he ev their boss is a politician when the bill for retirees medical bill comes soon. they make so many promises to government workers as a result cities and some states are trillions of dollars in the red. where will tomorrow's politicians get the money to pay them or pay what they promise they will raise your taxes and they will probably skip workers. sorry no more money to pay for yours. you have to pay your own retirement or healthcare. steve the manhattan institute points out two have made smart changes to prevent the pension bomb from going off. one is gary herbert. what did you do in utah? >> we tried to think long-term in utah. it's not just short term. it is long-term for a lot of

reasons. we moved from a defined benefit to a defined contribution. >> don't say those words. >> steve uses them all of the time. they are very important. i know you right now when you hear defined benefit you are switching off. so let's try to explain what you are talking about and maybe that will make it more interesting. defined benefit means you politicians define a benefit. you say this is what we are going to pay you in the future. >> to retirement income you are going to receive some kind of insurance policy or some kind of guaranteed benefit you receive after you retire until you die. you encourage states to switch to is -- >> he used the term define contribution it is called the 401 k. that's what you define the money

you are going to give an employee in an account so they can have it towards their retirement and they build it up over the time. once you make that contribution the tax payer's liability ends at that point. >> you as the worker it's not like social security or medicare it is real money. money has taken out. it is in your area. >> not subject to the womehims politicians. the other is hot air. there is a good chance there won't be the money to pay it. >> although i would say the hot air is a risk for taxpayers. because in many states the court says this is guaranteed. it's the tax payer who has to make it up. we are already seeing tax rates go up around the country. >> rhode island which had 6

billion in unfunded liabilities may change with the 3 billion utah all so these two states. >> can workers get mad? >> there was concern about what am i losing? we explained unless you make some changes the system will in fact go bankrupt. the young people come in the new employees could bankrupt the system. we have a 2 track system to keep our promises to the first ones that have a defined benefit but give choice to those who are actually sound. >> your pension system was already in such good shape all you had to do was make a deal with the new employees. >> we were at 100 percent you invest in funds grow and diminish. this is such a great

diminishment of overall money. we lost $6 billion we had to take correct tive action to make sure the state actuary was sound. utah was the exception. >> they tend to resist any kind of change. they do so in part of the union leaders tell them the 401 k style plans don't work. even though for instance among teachers of america 50 percent leave within five years. if they had a 401 kvshg they would take all their money with them. you get very little if you leave and switch and go to another job. this kind of plan is perfect for people who are going to stay in governments their entire life. >> it is awful for the taxpayer p and unfunded lie ability is 4 and a half trillion dollars up to 2 trillion in 2008. >> he tried me.

it this is the irony. 40 states say in the last few years the liability, the debt, the debt keeps growing. most of the reform is superficial. >> unions scream? >> they fight this tooth and nail. i would think they would like to have their own pot of money to hang on to. >> i certainly would like to have my own pot of money to hold on to. on the other hand if i were a worker in california if i had a 90 percent of my ars i could salary which is what you get i would opt for this, too. >> private sector unions don't get away with this? they can't have unstaunded liability. first of all there were a lot of -- about 50 percent of private workers at one point had

defined benefit. companies started going bankrupt result of this. they had a huge cost as a result of this. they switched and unions tried to resist but in a competitive marketplace where you are in the private sector you can go out of business. the difference is it doesn't go out of business. fdr said all government plies should realize the collective bargaining can't be transported. the purpose of government makes it impossible. this is fdr. >> and a great conservative. >> seems conservative today. he gets political points for having done this now? >> we get pal cal points because it's good principles. >> the public understands it? >> we are one of only 7 states

we got a rating in new york last friday triple a bond reading. one of only 7 states. can when we improve businesses being another fared they can't to know mer bouncing our budget employees want to know if something is real. you can take pun with you, you can ever leave. in chicago ram em annual said you won't get people and i says to move here. they are baying in this. we are going to see pension liability wills.

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john: we are back with your question and then the comments co-authors of the book "shadowbosses" elizabeth factor. mallory factor. and teen nine from the illinois policy institute. now from facebook : >> the answer is yes of violation of first amendment rights. we all believe in them >> we all believe in first amendment rights don't we? we realize we have a right to speak but only one group has the absolute right to be listened to. and that's government employee onions. nobody has the right to be

listened to we don't have the right to speak except government employee onions. >> what do you mean? >> when they are negotiating a contract you can't walk away from the table. politicians have to listen to them. that is absolutely part of the law. >> yes, sir, who is first. go ahead. >> my question is about the cycle of money from the union to the campaigns then back to the ief unions again. what's the most effective and easiest way to break the cycle so we don't have the shadow boxes any more? >> steve, joyce first of all. it goes back in places where you are not allowed to use a member's money for politics unless members agree to it what happens is political spending by unions drop significantly because when you ask members there is a growing discontent with where money is being used to not organize and represent

them but for political purposes much of which doesn't have anything to do with representing workers. somewhere between a third or 55 or 60 percent of union money represents workers the rest goes to politics and doesn't necessarily help workers. >> another thing is to go back to the conservative fdr who said up can't have government unions because they are negotiating their own bosses. that is going not going to work. >> beside exercising a right to vote what else can we do as concerned americans to push back against all of this corruption and incorrect spending of our tax dollars? >> you have to push back at the local government level. the unions are on every field of play. they are putting people out for dog catcher county sup viedzor school boards they are playing in every field of play.

the only way we arrest control of our government we the people from the unions is by you getting involved day-to-day and grinding it out. what they are confident of is we won't engage. we have to engage. we want our freedom. >> thank you all for your bad news in some cases. coming up my take on unions and what they really do to workers. being involved day to day. we have to engage for our freedom. john: thank you for your bad news. coming up, my take on union coming up, my take on union and what it really does ♪ [ malennouncer ] the first look...is only the beginning. ♪ ♪ introducing a stunning work of technology. ♪ introducing the entirely new lexus es. and the first ever es hybrid. this is the pursuit of perfection.

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>> do you remember the fuss that was made when kathleen seb beal why yous pushed for her boss' reelection. she encouraged to make sure obama continues to be president. bun dits said she should be fired because the law does say government employees may not use their official jobs to try to effect an election. the white house said it was a mistake and reimbursed the government for travel expenses she won't be punished. but some conservatives were furious still are they want her fired. come on. political employees do this all of the time. kathleen seb beal why yoll why hard-core democrat of course she promotes obama. that's illegal? what galls me is what's legal.

wall street journal says the newcomer to the newcomers is air traffic controller. why? oh it turns out they started giving out more money after president obama gave him a contract with rich pay increases more than what government workers got. i am sure that is just a coincidence. his administration strong commitment to air safety. mitt romney is not committed to air safety. why isn't this illegal? bribery, just seems wrong. unions pay to elect politicians who pay them back with your money. why isn't that a scam. that is perfectly legal. crazy but legal. >> wup final point at the union demonstration in philadelphia something i heard again and again is unions built the middle class. it was unions that gave workers

an 8 hour workday and time off and higher pay. oo ue like having to work a weekend and weekday? thank grur un yoion workers. >> in 1913 henry ford doubled wages and created an 8 hour workday. to compete gm and chrysler followed suit. that was 30 years before the uaw even existed. >> they did it because they wanted to compete for good workers. >> you think we would have an 8 hour day if there were no unions? no i am sorry you are wrong. >> they believe in the union myths. workers lie because they believe in free enterprise not because of union rules. oolg union contracts help but then they hurt. the cost of the ridged rule slow

growth and growth is what is best for workers. henry ford doubled wages then he hired more people all with no unions. years later the uaw comes but then growth slope and stop. that hurt workers. compare gm with much less unionized toyota. toyota created 15,000 jobs not in japan, in america. over the same period gm lost 400 thousand jobs. how is that good for work. workers should have the right to unionize but they should realize the down side. it is not just the cost it's the opportunities lost in union shops. union rules limit the ability to change to adapt a